Kudos for all the extensive research you've done on this topic. But there are also limits to the facts-and-logic approach, as well as the appeal-to-social-justice approach. Most people will pursue their self-interests, and in a society where: (a) the status of X men are high, (b) the status of Y men are low, and (c) X men are into Y women, things will unfold just as exactly as you'd predict. This is no longer becoming as unique to Asian America as we once thought and I'm seeing similar things happen in other minority communities that we Asian Americans once thought had such strong solidarity.
Regarding the WMAF dynamic, the thing that I've always disliked about it is less about how it affects my personal dating life, and more about the cultural messaging that these Asian Americans are the only ones who truly matter, so all our essays, novels, films, etc. ought to revolve around them as told from a very narrow pro-WMAF perspective. It is a really fascinating topic that touches on so many issues, so more people—especially Asian men and Asian women who have differing opinions—have full right to weigh in and tell their side.
For instance, I'd be very interested in personal essays about your own dating experiences as an Asian American woman who doesn't buy into the aforementioned mindset. You hinted at it in the first part of this series. I'd love to read more stuff like that.
As explanations go, status hierarchies and straightforward self-interest given those status hierarchies is a more complete account of the phenomenon than absolutely anything else.
Now perhaps the mountain of intersectional sociology literature and the other mountain of colonial history literature could be useful because it can tell us why the status hierarchies are what they are — but until such time as I see the phrase “middle class” being used in that line of work (and it has to be used correctly. Hint to the writers in that tradition: it’s the class you are in), I’ll be in no hurry to consult much of it.
this series is saying so many things i've tried to express about racial grievances in sex and dating society dismisses that are inherently related to misogynist radicalization and inceldom. mainstream feminism has spent so much time refusing to reckon with this because it's too hard- so deeply appreciate that you are writing this.
I want to see more writing like yours (and the ARX-Han piece you mentioned here or elsewhere). Asian American writing is staid as of 2025 because there is a lack of honesty about our material realities insofar as cultural analyses go. Without writing an essay in these comments, I would proffer some insight into WMAM dynamics from the perspective of LGBTQ+ men to supplement your discussion. Small endowments are still a racialized trope, we (gay Asian men) are set on one end of the spectrum opposite hypersexualized Black men, desirability politics abound, etc., and still not enough of us are going far enough to interrogate the foundations of this dynamic because it requires some nuance and is complicated. How refreshing it is to read someone who is approaching this conversation both in good faith and with a studied interest in teasing out the details, because these are not isolated phenomena.
thank you for your comment and for sharing your perspective. i think many people don’t want to believe that there are still racialized stereotypes about asian men. its something i overlooked / never asked my male friends about until i met my partner a few years ago and since then we talk a lot about how he grew up in a supposedly “liberal” area but there were a lot of contradictions between what asians boys are taught about their supposed privileges, and how they are actually treated by everyone around them.
these anecdotes make me wonder if the loud voices in current asian american discourse have ever had a meaningful conversation with an asian man in their life.
I think I agree with and followed most if not all of this essay. Very well written and a lot of room to think about things in a way I haven't previously. I think the only place I don't think I fully followed was the following:
"A commentator on Divyne’s video astutely points out that “a black dude created the meme and everyone uses the meme but you framed the video to say asian men are misogynistic?” Somehow, in a complex situation involving black men, White men, Asian women, and Asian men, the majority of the conversation still centers Asian men’s failings."
I think the reason I may not fully follow was because of the statment "everyone uses the meme". Now I cannot dispute this, I dont use social media much, but from the context I got in this essay it seems the use of Oxford Study, was mostly by Asian men. So it seems the statment should be "a black dude created the meme and asian men use the meme therefore explaining why the conclusion was centered around asian men." I do think that the conclusion being focused on asian men wasnt out of no where because the Oxford Study meme seems to be used mostly by asian men. I am unsure if that is true and if not then I think I fully agree with this part of the manifesto, but I do think it was a part I don't think I fully followed as being an unfounded conclusion.
thanks for reading and for your thoughts. your point that the usage of the term by asian american men, leading to the focus on asian american men makes sense to me. i suppose in hindsight a better interpretation on my part could be - by not just debunking oxford study on their own and instead using it as an insult, asian men also miss opportunities to challenge the root cause of white supremacy when they prioritize shaming and harassing asian women in wmaf relationships.
In spite of what some may say, the WMAF sexual dynamic is a special kind of toxic requiring further dissection in our current climate because all of us experience its blowback; Asian women are the only demographic of women to have voted for Trump in higher numbers than their Asian male counterparts, and we all know why that is. The rest of us have to live with their choice of American fascism against our will.
I haven’t seen this statistic. Is it purely a percentage comparison based on the 2024 election? Has it been analyzed in connection with voting trends of recent elections like 2016 and 2020? I would be interested to see if it’s an actual increase in vote share or if it is more nuanced, such as a higher percentage of a reduced turnout.
thanks for sharing your point of view. i had that thought while writing this as well - what is the point? i guess i have decided it’s to fill in the gap in the discourse because i do not see people publicly making the arguments i share, while i do see plenty of the opposite. america will always be built for wh*te people, but asian americans should know we don’t have to be part of it.
it's true that white is always going to be default, more or less. but I think you can get what you want as an individual asian-american
thinking about these intractable issues of unfairness is useful as long as you stop thinking about them eventually. better to think about them than be in denial. but you don't want to think about them forever. some people spend their whole lives bitter. so you have to get to a point where you acknowledge unfairness, but you find a way to get what you want. you don't need everything to be fair to get what you want
Ooooooor we could just remove systemic inequality. That would damage your position as the Default Setting, so I would understand if you were a bit averse to that idea, but we have to do it. It’s either that, or there will be endless- and fully warranted- resentment and bitterness on our end, and your end will have to choose between white guilt or white supremacy forever. Which, obviously, most of you do not want in the first place. This system isn’t actually helping anyone but like, 6 really rich white dudes.
Girl. Idk how to tell you this but everyone else has been able to eliminate the inequalities you’re apparently incapable of giving up. It is going to happen, and it’s up to you if that’s gonna look like how it did in Scandinavia or France. I understand that it’s in your best interests to try to convince me that it’s my personal responsibility to accept an unfair system. I just really struggle to care. Especially when your entire argument is based on the idea that everyone is entirely impotent and we aren’t.
> everyone else has been able to eliminate the inequalities you’re apparently incapable of giving up
what planet are you living on where "everyone else" has eliminated inequalities?
I think you'd benefit from the serenity prayer: ask for acceptance of the things you can't change, the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to tell the difference
I think a lot of young activist types neglect themselves: they think "I can't be happy until everyone is happy." Ever consider you'd be doing your part by becoming happy yourself?
I have to agree about that these issues are important to recognize, and that there's a point of obsession that's more poisonous to the self than anything else.
However, I don't think I'd agree with your position that we can't think about these things forever, because it's always thrust onto us. It's kind of logical too, as long as there is a functional difference in how we treat races, then obviously you'd recognize those differences, and have those highlighted to you every time they're brought up.
The question is then, should you turn the other eye, and remain blissfully ignorant, or continue to nudge society so these differences no longer persist?
I would not recommend being blissfully ignorant, but I also think people often conflate fairness with the ability to get what they want. you can get what you want and find happiness in an unfair situation, it's just somewhat harder. Acknowledging the unfairness is usually part of the process of getting what you want
Kudos for all the extensive research you've done on this topic. But there are also limits to the facts-and-logic approach, as well as the appeal-to-social-justice approach. Most people will pursue their self-interests, and in a society where: (a) the status of X men are high, (b) the status of Y men are low, and (c) X men are into Y women, things will unfold just as exactly as you'd predict. This is no longer becoming as unique to Asian America as we once thought and I'm seeing similar things happen in other minority communities that we Asian Americans once thought had such strong solidarity.
Regarding the WMAF dynamic, the thing that I've always disliked about it is less about how it affects my personal dating life, and more about the cultural messaging that these Asian Americans are the only ones who truly matter, so all our essays, novels, films, etc. ought to revolve around them as told from a very narrow pro-WMAF perspective. It is a really fascinating topic that touches on so many issues, so more people—especially Asian men and Asian women who have differing opinions—have full right to weigh in and tell their side.
For instance, I'd be very interested in personal essays about your own dating experiences as an Asian American woman who doesn't buy into the aforementioned mindset. You hinted at it in the first part of this series. I'd love to read more stuff like that.
As explanations go, status hierarchies and straightforward self-interest given those status hierarchies is a more complete account of the phenomenon than absolutely anything else.
Now perhaps the mountain of intersectional sociology literature and the other mountain of colonial history literature could be useful because it can tell us why the status hierarchies are what they are — but until such time as I see the phrase “middle class” being used in that line of work (and it has to be used correctly. Hint to the writers in that tradition: it’s the class you are in), I’ll be in no hurry to consult much of it.
mahin, thanks for sharing your thoughts. can you clarify to me how your thoughts on class relate to my essay and what it is/isn't about?
Good research. i want to comment more but i dont know what i want to say yet
this series is saying so many things i've tried to express about racial grievances in sex and dating society dismisses that are inherently related to misogynist radicalization and inceldom. mainstream feminism has spent so much time refusing to reckon with this because it's too hard- so deeply appreciate that you are writing this.
thank you reading and for your thoughts.
I want to see more writing like yours (and the ARX-Han piece you mentioned here or elsewhere). Asian American writing is staid as of 2025 because there is a lack of honesty about our material realities insofar as cultural analyses go. Without writing an essay in these comments, I would proffer some insight into WMAM dynamics from the perspective of LGBTQ+ men to supplement your discussion. Small endowments are still a racialized trope, we (gay Asian men) are set on one end of the spectrum opposite hypersexualized Black men, desirability politics abound, etc., and still not enough of us are going far enough to interrogate the foundations of this dynamic because it requires some nuance and is complicated. How refreshing it is to read someone who is approaching this conversation both in good faith and with a studied interest in teasing out the details, because these are not isolated phenomena.
thank you for your comment and for sharing your perspective. i think many people don’t want to believe that there are still racialized stereotypes about asian men. its something i overlooked / never asked my male friends about until i met my partner a few years ago and since then we talk a lot about how he grew up in a supposedly “liberal” area but there were a lot of contradictions between what asians boys are taught about their supposed privileges, and how they are actually treated by everyone around them.
these anecdotes make me wonder if the loud voices in current asian american discourse have ever had a meaningful conversation with an asian man in their life.
I think I agree with and followed most if not all of this essay. Very well written and a lot of room to think about things in a way I haven't previously. I think the only place I don't think I fully followed was the following:
"A commentator on Divyne’s video astutely points out that “a black dude created the meme and everyone uses the meme but you framed the video to say asian men are misogynistic?” Somehow, in a complex situation involving black men, White men, Asian women, and Asian men, the majority of the conversation still centers Asian men’s failings."
I think the reason I may not fully follow was because of the statment "everyone uses the meme". Now I cannot dispute this, I dont use social media much, but from the context I got in this essay it seems the use of Oxford Study, was mostly by Asian men. So it seems the statment should be "a black dude created the meme and asian men use the meme therefore explaining why the conclusion was centered around asian men." I do think that the conclusion being focused on asian men wasnt out of no where because the Oxford Study meme seems to be used mostly by asian men. I am unsure if that is true and if not then I think I fully agree with this part of the manifesto, but I do think it was a part I don't think I fully followed as being an unfounded conclusion.
thanks for reading and for your thoughts. your point that the usage of the term by asian american men, leading to the focus on asian american men makes sense to me. i suppose in hindsight a better interpretation on my part could be - by not just debunking oxford study on their own and instead using it as an insult, asian men also miss opportunities to challenge the root cause of white supremacy when they prioritize shaming and harassing asian women in wmaf relationships.
Ok I’m listening. Would like to hear the rest.
Thank you for your work on this essay.
In spite of what some may say, the WMAF sexual dynamic is a special kind of toxic requiring further dissection in our current climate because all of us experience its blowback; Asian women are the only demographic of women to have voted for Trump in higher numbers than their Asian male counterparts, and we all know why that is. The rest of us have to live with their choice of American fascism against our will.
thanks for your comment. i wasn't aware of that statistic - thank you for sharing.
I haven’t seen this statistic. Is it purely a percentage comparison based on the 2024 election? Has it been analyzed in connection with voting trends of recent elections like 2016 and 2020? I would be interested to see if it’s an actual increase in vote share or if it is more nuanced, such as a higher percentage of a reduced turnout.
this level of detail is really not helpful
it's not that you're wrong, it's that you're not going to change things that dramatically in a majority white country
you're analyzing this issue far past the point of usefulness
thanks for sharing your point of view. i had that thought while writing this as well - what is the point? i guess i have decided it’s to fill in the gap in the discourse because i do not see people publicly making the arguments i share, while i do see plenty of the opposite. america will always be built for wh*te people, but asian americans should know we don’t have to be part of it.
I'm white so take what I say with a grain of salt
it's true that white is always going to be default, more or less. but I think you can get what you want as an individual asian-american
thinking about these intractable issues of unfairness is useful as long as you stop thinking about them eventually. better to think about them than be in denial. but you don't want to think about them forever. some people spend their whole lives bitter. so you have to get to a point where you acknowledge unfairness, but you find a way to get what you want. you don't need everything to be fair to get what you want
Ooooooor we could just remove systemic inequality. That would damage your position as the Default Setting, so I would understand if you were a bit averse to that idea, but we have to do it. It’s either that, or there will be endless- and fully warranted- resentment and bitterness on our end, and your end will have to choose between white guilt or white supremacy forever. Which, obviously, most of you do not want in the first place. This system isn’t actually helping anyone but like, 6 really rich white dudes.
Girl. Idk how to tell you this but everyone else has been able to eliminate the inequalities you’re apparently incapable of giving up. It is going to happen, and it’s up to you if that’s gonna look like how it did in Scandinavia or France. I understand that it’s in your best interests to try to convince me that it’s my personal responsibility to accept an unfair system. I just really struggle to care. Especially when your entire argument is based on the idea that everyone is entirely impotent and we aren’t.
> everyone else has been able to eliminate the inequalities you’re apparently incapable of giving up
what planet are you living on where "everyone else" has eliminated inequalities?
I think you'd benefit from the serenity prayer: ask for acceptance of the things you can't change, the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to tell the difference
I think a lot of young activist types neglect themselves: they think "I can't be happy until everyone is happy." Ever consider you'd be doing your part by becoming happy yourself?
I have to agree about that these issues are important to recognize, and that there's a point of obsession that's more poisonous to the self than anything else.
However, I don't think I'd agree with your position that we can't think about these things forever, because it's always thrust onto us. It's kind of logical too, as long as there is a functional difference in how we treat races, then obviously you'd recognize those differences, and have those highlighted to you every time they're brought up.
The question is then, should you turn the other eye, and remain blissfully ignorant, or continue to nudge society so these differences no longer persist?
I think the choice is obvious.
I would not recommend being blissfully ignorant, but I also think people often conflate fairness with the ability to get what they want. you can get what you want and find happiness in an unfair situation, it's just somewhat harder. Acknowledging the unfairness is usually part of the process of getting what you want
What do you think of @worstboyfriendever?
i don’t
But WMAF themes run through the writing. You’d be fascinated by it I think
wbe is not wmaf "themes," it's bad-faith misogyny, hypersexualization, and anti-asian rage bait.
It’s just interesting all these Asian girls reach out to him, despite all that. Much to analyze there